.243 or .308 or maybe something else?

[antsa]

My goto calibre for foxes is .224, in the .222Rem and the .223Rem. When out after deer (in my area fallows) I use the .308. Got a call the other afternoon from a neighbour. Eight fallows grazing in one of his paddocks. Headed off with the .308 but, of course, when I got there the mob had disappeared back into the pine forest. Was just about to head back to the ute when I spotted movement about 120m out. A fox! A 150gr Sierra ProHunter "takes no prisoners".

I would skip the HMR idea and get a .222Rem and a .308, but that's me.

Cheers

 

[JohnSmith]

Regarding foxes and 308…

If you aren’t keeping the fox pelt, the caliber doesn’t really matter. Caliber choice would come down to cost and your backdrop.

I’ve shot a porcupine with a 300 win mag at point blank range. Blew it damn near in half… but the meat was still good. I’d say it was effective. All depends on your end goal. (My hunting partners and I were on a mountain hunt and were literally starving, needed the meat).

 

[JTO]

I would say .308, especially if factory ammo is available with 125gr bullets, you don't appear to be thinking of handloading your own.
I doubt you are thinking of 200+ yard shots!

 

[Overlay]

6.5x55SE - Sweet shooter, punches hard on Roe to Reds and minimal recoil so you see the bullet strike - simples! Oh and no manbun is required!
You are welcome.

what he said, lovely calibre will shoot anything from 120 - 160 grn ammo and good for any deer species and foxes

 

[Jagare]

As the OP asked about the .308 or .243 my choice would be the .308. 150 -180 grn bullet will kill any animal you are likely to encounter in Europe. People who tell you the .308 is " loopy" are just talking bollocks.

 

[Heym SR20]

If the OP is in Falkirk then @Edinburgh Rifles is a short drive away and have a very good 100gn 243 non toxic load that works well in 1 in 10” twist rifles. 80gn also work very well and have more energy than the 100gn.

But given you are dealing with Police Scotland and they understand the Red Deer, Sika Deer non-toxic requirements then I would go 308 as a very good all round calibre that you can get ammo anywhere. It’s standard issue with Forestry (whatever its called this week).

I would however suggest the 7x57 or 6.5 x55 or CM as very sweet all rounders. But you do need to think ahead on ammo.

 

[TheDeerWalker]

This is all good information to think over, I was always set on the 243 as it's what I "learnt" on but being in Scotland and the NLB coming in, plus the want for Highland Reds (have plans to retire up north but that's a while yet!) it seemed to be becoming a less desirable calibre. My brother has it and reloads himself but he is based in England and does a hell of a lot more shooting then I ever will so I was going to stick to factory rounds.

I did speak to the local gun shop about the 6.5 CM but getting the ammo was a lot harder and very expensive in my area, so have pretty much written that off, the two places I know don't stock much of the metric stuff. A lot of 243, 270 and 308 but very little 6.5 - from what I have seen.

Have always been warned against the 270, told it's the real grown ups gun for the rangers and so on, I'm in no delusion that I'm a weekend hobbyist who is probably willing to part with too much of money for this! The FEO I chatted to seemed decent enough and so I'll possibly go 308 on the form and talk to them about their thoughts. I did like the idea of having multiple: 17HMR, 22LR, 223, 270... but lets face it that would just be me given into my enjoyment of rifles and at least two of them would sit in the cabinet gathering dust.

Cheers all

 

[Norfolk Horn]

I've had a tikka t3 in 243 for years now lovely and light to carry, shot numerous muntjac and roe plus several big red and a few fallow.
I fancied something with a bit more power at range from a highseat with no option to stalk in closer on the larger deer.
Advice I was give was 308 as lot of choice of ammo and second hand guns.
I bought a Steyr mannlicher Pro hunter which I currently shoot the 123 sako through and that combination differently does the job on the fallow and while it probably all in the mind I feel happier and more confident using the 308 for this job.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

There is no right or wrong answer here, but you asked if i were in the same shoes as you what would i get? That would be the 6.5 Creedmoor some dont like it because its trendy at the moment, but it works. If you shot non toxic most of the shops will have supplies as they would 308, but your firarms officer is more likely to approve a 6.5 as a first centerfire. It is a nice soft shooting round that i think helps encourage seeing the bullet strike at close range so useful in close woodland when you want to see that reaction to shot,
The 270 mentioned has a fearsome reputation both in knockdown power but also in the kick it gives you, i think they are both exaggerations, its flat and fast and can be more so with reloading, and doesn’t really kick anymore than a 308, but do you need fearsome knock down for Roe and occasional Reds or accuracy from and easygoing 6.5.

Why exactly is a firearms officer likely to approve a 6.5 over something else?

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

I would say .308, especially if factory ammo is available with 125gr bullets, you don't appear to be thinking of handloading your own.
I doubt you are thinking of 200+ yard shots!

I've been shooting a .308 the last 4 years and just run 150gr bullets through it. Never thought about trying anything different. Can I ask what brand you are using and why you made the choice to go for a lighter grain weight? 150 seems to do me fine out to 250 meters with minimal meat damage using SPs

 

[VSS]

Have always been warned against the 270,

I listened to all the stories too, and then decided that any calibre that evokes that much passion must be good! How right I was! There's a lot of nonsense bandied about in the UK by folk who've never fired one, but in America the 270 is described as "a light recoiling calibre suitable for ladies and young shooters".
The only trouble is finding one for sale 2nd hand, because once someone's got one they're loathe to part with it. They're a proper "rifle for life".

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

Well DeerWalker I remember being in your position when I started out!

This is just my opinion and surely somebody will disagree so I'll keep it short and sweet

Go for the Tikka T3x in .308. I was weighing up the same two rifles you are and its the gun I chose. Haven't looked back. While they may be a light rifle (ideal for stalking) some people feel they are a bit too light for absorbing recoil. To be honest though, get yourself a good cheek bag on the stock and a good shooting position and you can still see the impact, even on a .308 rifle. Don't let the pansies put you off Gods caliber . The Mauser has a press fit barrel which in and of itself isn't a bad thing because you'd need to be doing some serious range time to burn it out, it was something that came into my consideration as I will probably end up re-barreling my Tikka with something like a Proof Research barrel down the line for sh!ts and giggles.

Nothings stopping you from unzipping foxes with the dirty thirty either - you can get yourself some fox suitable ammo (Federal 110gr VMAX for example) for the same price as any other fox caliber. As you're planning on shooting deer, especially the occasional red, why limit yourself to a rifle that is on the lower end of the power scale? I'm sure the .243 would kill anything you're likely to come across once you make an accurate shot but why limit yourself as a new stalker? Newbies and vets all can make a bad shot, extra energy of a .308 will allow it to be a bit more forgiving. It's happened to me once and I've learned from it but boy am I glad I had the .308 and not something smaller.

I think so many people advocate the .243 because its just a common rifle. Everybody knows somebody with one. You mentioned the .308s trajectory on foxes but really its not as bad as people say. At what I'd consider the edge of my effective range for various reasons, at 300 yards a .243 will drop about 6 inches, whereas a .308 will drop roughly 8 inches. There's really not that much in it. Once you get behind either gun and familiarize yourself with it, you wont even think about it.

 

[User00040]

I listened to all the stories too, and then decided that any calibre that evokes that much passion must be good! How right I was! There's a lot of nonsense bandied about in the UK by folk who've never fired one, but in America the 270 is described as "a light recoiling calibre suitable for ladies and young shooters".
The only trouble is finding one for sale 2nd hand, because once someone's got one they're loathe to part with it. They're a proper "rifle for life".

Forestry and Land Scotland's standard issue for deer is .270, Forestry Commission (i.e Englandshire and Communist Dragon Land) uses 308...

Says it all really

One thing I'll add, be sure you buy the right ammunition/bullets. Some 308 rounds sold here are more suitable for wild boar/moose than deer.

Personally prefer chamberings with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps and above, works well with frangible bullets

 

[ChesterP]

This is all good information to think over, I was always set on the 243 as it's what I "learnt" on but being in Scotland and the NLB coming in, plus the want for Highland Reds (have plans to retire up north but that's a while yet!) it seemed to be becoming a less desirable calibre. My brother has it and reloads himself but he is based in England and does a hell of a lot more shooting then I ever will so I was going to stick to factory rounds.

I did speak to the local gun shop about the 6.5 CM but getting the ammo was a lot harder and very expensive in my area, so have pretty much written that off, the two places I know don't stock much of the metric stuff. A lot of 243, 270 and 308 but very little 6.5 - from what I have seen.

Have always been warned against the 270, told it's the real grown ups gun for the rangers and so on, I'm in no delusion that I'm a weekend hobbyist who is probably willing to part with too much of money for this! The FEO I chatted to seemed decent enough and so I'll possibly go 308 on the form and talk to them about their thoughts. I did like the idea of having multiple: 17HMR, 22LR, 223, 270... but lets face it that would just be me given into my enjoyment of rifles and at least two of them would sit in the cabinet gathering dust.

Cheers all

You've answered your own question with what is actually sensible conclusion. Apply for two cals, you'll find yourself shooting more (bear with me on this). Don't fall into the trap of "seeing what the feo thinks",, and no harm to them but it's not for them to suggest what you should look but to evaluate your application on merit and law. It's not his decision, it's you who are providing good reason and you that will be spending the money and you behind the trigger. Evidence your application satisfactorily and you'll get what you apply for.

Back to the cals: 308 and 223. You'll find ammo everywhere for both and if you include the 223 you'll be able to take Roe in Scotland and it would be more than adequate for fox and rabbit control, although if shooting shorter distances there's still merit in having a moderated 22 shooting subs...almost inaudible. My first application was 308 and 223. I got both and find that the 223 is by far the most versatile rifle you can own. You'll want to look for an excuse to go out and enjoy your spare time in lovely surroundings and use the 223 for everything from corvid and fox control, to knocking off longer range rabbits and taking small deer. It's a pleasure to shoot, especially tipped with a nice light scope. On the used market the Leupold VX3-4.5-14 x 40 is an excellent little scope for vermin control with the BDC ret allowing rapid aiming at various distances, and inexpensive to buy.

As for ill informed comments about 308 like "lobbing bricks" and "boring" well the first statement is patent nonsense, complete and utter rubbish bearing in mind we're not discussing 1000yd target shooting, but sub 300 yd deer shooting, and the second is a reflection of how popular for a reason 308 is. It's earned its reputation over the decades for a reason. If that makes it boring, then so is the wheel.

 

[JTO]

I've been shooting a .308 the last 4 years and just run 150gr bullets through it. Never thought about trying anything different. Can I ask what brand you are using and why you made the choice to go for a lighter grain weight? 150 seems to do me fine out to 250 meters with minimal meat damage using SPs

I was suggesting 125gr bullets for fox because the chap was asking about mainly foxing, and he thought a .308 was 'loopy'. Never tried anything lighter. I have 223s for foxes. I use 180gr for when I visit the Forest of Dean. I think 150gr would be considered the 'standard' bullet for .308!

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

I was suggesting 125gr bullets for fox because the chap was asking about mainly foxing, and he thought a .308 was 'loopy'. Never tried anything lighter. I have 223s for foxes. I use 180gr for when I visit the Forest of Dean. I think 150gr would be considered the 'standard' bullet for .308!

Ah okay fair enough. I was just curious.

People who say .308s are "loopy" at stalking ranged (~300 yards) have probably never shot one. While they might drop a bit faster, 2 to 3 inches difference is not something to declare the caliber as a brick IMO. 150s seem to work great for me but I am interested in some 165gr SSTs

 

[JTO]

People who say .308s are "loopy" at stalking ranged (~300 yards) have probably never shot one. While they might drop a bit faster, 2 to 3 inches difference is not something to declare the caliber as a brick IMO. 150s seem to work great for me but I am interested in some 165gr SSTs

The best group I ever did with my Steyr SSG was 7 shots inside a 1" square patch at 200 yards with Norma 180gr factory ammo. The scope was a 3-9 x 42 that cost £12 new!
I still have a few Samson 180gr left, their Match bullets seem very good, but Samson is no longer imported as far as I know. Joe at East Barnet still has Samson ammo listed.

 

[JH83]

2 calibres stick out as sensible choices for do it all stalking rifles which will be forever easy to feed on factory ammo; 308 & 6.5 CM.

Both are wildly popular, and have military applications so demand for components is sky high. Both sought after in the civilian market so you shouldn’t be short of a wide array of factory loaded bullets-this is increasingly relevant we transition into the non lead era when a lot of more obscure calibres are becoming nigh on impossible to find rounds for, and prohibitively expensive. Both are in the medium power bracket IMO, the 308 has a bit more ooomfh, the 6.5 is nicer to shoot. You won’t go far wrong with either.

 

[JTO]

As for ill informed comments about 308 like "lobbing bricks" and "boring" well the first statement is patent nonsense, complete and utter rubbish bearing in mind we're not discussing 1000yd target shooting, but sub 300 yd deer shooting, and the second is a reflection of how popular for a reason 308 is. It's earned its reputation over the decades for a reason. If that makes it boring, then so is the wheel.

Some people will say this sort of thing when comparing .223 with 22-250.
Factor in barrel life and powder used/ammo cost against bullet drop at 250 yards and you might think "Is it worth it?"

 

[Sonicdmb73]

This is all good information to think over, I was always set on the 243 as it's what I "learnt" on but being in Scotland and the NLB coming in, plus the want for Highland Reds (have plans to retire up north but that's a while yet!) it seemed to be becoming a less desirable calibre. My brother has it and reloads himself but he is based in England and does a hell of a lot more shooting then I ever will so I was going to stick to factory rounds.

I did speak to the local gun shop about the 6.5 CM but getting the ammo was a lot harder and very expensive in my area, so have pretty much written that off, the two places I know don't stock much of the metric stuff. A lot of 243, 270 and 308 but very little 6.5 - from what I have seen.

Have always been warned against the 270, told it's the real grown ups gun for the rangers and so on, I'm in no delusion that I'm a weekend hobbyist who is probably willing to part with too much of money for this! The FEO I chatted to seemed decent enough and so I'll possibly go 308 on the form and talk to them about their thoughts. I did like the idea of having multiple: 17HMR, 22LR, 223, 270... but lets face it that would just be me given into my enjoyment of rifles and at least two of them would sit in the cabinet gathering dust.

Cheers all

270 was one of the first centre fire I had much use of. It was unmoderated but never found it unpleasant to shoot. To be fair I have probably fire more 12 bores that kicked worse.
My Sauer 202 when wearing its 270 barrel doesn’t really feel any different to the 6.5x55 one. The rifle fits and its moderated so recoil is a mute point IMO. The only reason I don’t use mine for everything like my friend once did. Is it uses a lot more powder than my 222 or 20 Tac (223 based wildcat).

Why exactly is a firearms officer likely to approve a 6.5 over something else?

My experience with various friends going for their first ticket. Along with the fact it’s in black and white in the Home Office Guidelines. That 6.5 is the largest they like to give where they can’t get away with saying 243. It seems to be the attitude of FLD’s around me to try limit the size of the rifle, sometimes without rhyme or reason to the ballistic capability of said rifle/cartridge.