.243 or .308 or maybe something else?

[TheDeerWalker]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

 

[lochty]

7mm 08, if your local RFD stocks the ammo.

 

[Jon P]

I have a Mauser M12 Extreme and TikkaT3, both shoot extremely accurately, I find the safety catch in the Mauser is quite noisy and not so user friendly as the Tikka safety catch.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

I normally answer 308 rifle to this kind of question as it is a versatile delivery system for just about anything that needs a bullet.

However in this case, maybe 6.5 Creedmoor. It is marginally flatter shooting which is useful for small foxes as extended ranges. It is not a big difference though. The 6.5mm is a more efficient bullet, but out of a 6.5 Creedmoor, it comes out slower than a typical 308 bullet.
There is widely available 6.5CM ammo.

Don’t forget to ask for a moderator.

FWIW I would not get a 243. I have a 6.5CM and 308 and using the 6.5, it feels like a bit of a pea shooter sometimes in comparison to the 308.

Your FEO may also think a 308 is over powered for foxes.

 

[VSS]

I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

270 is the answer to your conundrum, obviously.

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

Ive owned multiple .308's and .243's both are very good calibres and will do all that you want, the .308 will be a better tool for the reds and the .243 will be a better tool for the foxes, with that said though both will cover all bases so it really comes down to what your going to do the most of which I would imagine is foxes, or and I dont like throwing other calibres in the mix for people what about somthing in the middle and I would be tempted by a .25-06 or .270 whixh would be nice and flat shooting for the foxes plus a bit more oomph for the reds and will handle the roe nicley with the right bullet choice

 

[sir-lamp-alot]

270 is the answer to your conundrum, obviously.

Beat me to it

 

[Tim.243]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

with a .270 you are half way from both with copper loads and data for them.
If I was in the position and the .243 had to go I would keep the .270 and put a thermal on top.
When the limp wristed person says they kick, take no notice as they haven't shot enough lol

 

[TheDeerWalker]

Interesting about the 270, it had crossed my mind after watching some videos on youtube about the deer managers real far up north. My local gun store only stocks PPU and Sako Gamehead in 270 which put me off, I don't know about PPU but the price was decent and Sako was more expensive then 243 and 308 not that's the deciding factor, more I would have wanted to try multiple different brands to find the one.

 

[Foxyboy43]

6.5x55SE - Sweet shooter, punches hard on Roe to Reds and minimal recoil so you see the bullet strike - simples! Oh and no manbun is required!
You are welcome.

 

[tikkathreebarrels]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

Your 243 will drop reds without difficulty.

Your first fullbore for stalking use you need to have three thoughts in mind:

1. Everybody here will have their own recommendation, in fact I'd say if you get 100 replies here, you'll get 101 calibre recommendations. (Think about "what's a good beer?").

2. You do need to factor in the change to non lead bullets NLB. Because I haven't yet converted to NLB I can only say that there will be a difference in ballistic performance between lead and non lead.

3. Your Firearms Licensing Authority will probably exercise their ability to guide you into calibres/chambering which they deem to be appropriate. Buddy unless you can plait sand you shouldn't go looking to have an argument with them.

 

[404Boar]

A first centre fire rifle for someone very new to stalking, to use regularly for Fox and Roe with a trip away for Red possibly twice per year.... and a 270 is being recommended. Really?

 

[VSS]

A first centre fire rifle for someone very new to stalking, to use regularly for Fox and Roe with a trip away for Red possibly twice per year.... and a 270 is being recommended. Really?

Yes, really. Why not?
243 is a lovely sweet-shooting calibre, but may not be welcomed by his guide when he turns up to shoot reds, and may leave him stuck for a suitable non-lead round for reds.
308 is about as exciting as lobbing bricks down a field.
270 will do all he asks, has about the same recoil as 308, and is fun to shoot! What more could you want?

 

[HandB]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

I am a big fan of the .308 cartridge, to the extent that I have two .308 rifles. But I also have a .243 and for your application I recommend a .243. The recoil is mild, hence it is easy to shoot accurately and you can see the strike of shot in the scope, yet it still hits hard enough to dispatch humanely any of the prey you are interested in. I reload and that allows one to get a really high performing load for one's particular rifle, but decent factory ammo for .243 is readily available in the UK.

 

[Bowland blades]

6.5 calibres are the new 243win , will remain so till Scotland confirm ( as in act) that they will drop the 100 min rule . 95 and 100 grain varmint bullets are available for the 6.5 rifles and you can get 6.5 mm 100 grain copper for deer that work very well on all uk deer .
I like 243win and have shot one for many years but its an issue until sorted , know one guy who is about to travel to Scotland for reds and he has to borrow a rifle as his 243 isnt permitted because its 100 grain plus copper " factory only " at the venue. Although you can get it , you wont find it easy and a goodly percentage of 243 rifles dont even like 100 grain lead ( not the case with mine but it is with many )

 

[Deerstalker6]

I'd opt for either a 6.5x55 SE or 6.5 Creedmoor, you can cater for both Fox and Deer with these cartridges/calibers

6.5 creedmoor does offer a 95gr Vmax round via federal in a factory loading, 6.5x55 swede if your after a more classic round,

Plenty of ammo offerings in both cartridges, see what your local rfd's offer in these rounds ?

Plenty of choice in non lead loaded factory rounds too FOX, SAKO, Hornady etc for both cartridges

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Having owned and or used a good range of different rifles/cartridges. I would if I was advising my young self go for a 6.5 of some description.
I started with a 308 but my FLD got awkward about having fox (pre ALQ). So I got a 243. Brilliant foxing rifle I shot hundreds with it before I got a 222. Which is cheaper to feed for the numbers I was shooting including crows etc.
I have a 270 it will kill anything (as will all the others) in this country that you can legally shoot. But it is not the cheapest to feed.
Now the other considerations are lead free and what your FLD will want to allow as a first rifle. The 6.5 is listed (6.5x55 iirc) as suitable for fox and deer in the Home Office Guidelines. So something along those lines. A Creedmoor if you go for a T3 perhaps. Would suit your purpose.

 

[Scipio]

6.5 calibres are the new 243win , will remain so till Scotland confirm ( as in act) that they will drop the 100 min rule . 95 and 100 grain varmint bullets are available for the 6.5 rifles and you can get 6.5 mm 100 grain copper for deer that work very well on all uk deer .
I like 243win and have shot one for many years but its an issue until sorted , know one guy who is about to travel to Scotland for reds and he has to borrow a rifle as his 243 isnt permitted because its 100 grain plus copper " factory only " at the venue. Although you can get it , you wont find it easy and a goodly percentage of 243 rifles dont even like 100 grain lead ( not the case with mine but it is with many )

Hello Bowland blades, and greetings to the TS as well.

Some good points made there by Bowland blades.
However i would like to add that Denmark, who is going non lead from 2023 with regards to rifle hunting, has decided to abandon the min bullet weight demands of yesteryear for deer sized game with regards to non leads, and instead only base the min demands for deer on caliber (6mm minimum) and energy (min 2000 joule at the muzzle i believe). This should exactly make 243 legal for even reds here when shooting the non leads.
Now it is not certain that Denmark will set precedence for the rest of europe or the UK of course, but i think this decision might be worth noting non the less.

This said, In your case i probably wouldnt want to take that chance, and thus i'd probably focus on a 7mm or 6.5 calibered cartridge with not uncecessarily high powder capacities for your demands.
In this context i see the 6.5 x55 have already been mentioned, and so has the ditto creedmore. They might not be bad choices at all for your needs. Someone also mentioned the 7mm08 and i could add to that the 7x57 too, but do you reload yourself, or plan to do it? If not then sticking with a cartridge that you know can easily be found factory loaded where you hunt might be best.
I will still add to that, that Mauser is relaunching a lot of their rifles in the 7x57 this year......Just saying

PS. Just to adress the last point bowland blades made about the 243 not always liking those longer 100grn copper bullets. - Maybe the 6mm Creedmore could be the trick then, should you want to go down the 6mm road.
I think they might have the needed faster twist rate as well as longer neck of cartridge to better suit the longer and heavier for cal non lead bullets. But do check that out yourself to confirm, if this idea interests you

 

[NullMac]

Not sure this thread isn't just going to confuse as there isn't a right answer !

I would have said 243 as it covers most of your shooting perfectly. 243 will drop Reds no issue BUT depending on where you are going to go shoot Reds in Scotland you may not be universally welcomed with a 243. Many (but not all) stalkers on the wilder hills may take a view that the 243 does not carry enough power further out in the event of a misplaced shot and in difficult circumstances that probability increases. Lots of people may also disagree with that view but you want to have a good day out not be with a fretting stalker from the off. My buddy would be making faces if you turned up with one and would be trying to get you to use the estate rifle. Does not get much wilder than his place though. But when I go after hinds in Ballater the stalker swears by a 243.

Alternatively, If you can get a 6.5 Creed approved for fox with a bullet at the lighter end of the weight range, you could then use 120/130gr on larger deer. So that would be a good solution. Perfectly adequate for all deer at sensible hill ranges.

One option would be to buy a 243 as it fits the vast majority of your shooting and if/when you go shooting in Scotland use the estate rifle. You also have an excuse then for getting the stalker to talk you through the drop and drift on each shot as its his rifle not yours and you get to play with other kit.

 

[VSS]

Alternatively, If you can get a 6.5 Creed approved for fox with a bullet at the lighter end of the weight range, you could then use 120/130gr on larger deer. So that would be a good solution. Perfectly adequate for all deer at sensible hill ranges.

He doesn't have to get his rifle "approved" for fox. He needs to get it approved for red deer, the biggest thing he's hoping to shoot. A booking or an invite will satisfy that requirement. Once he's got reds as his initial "good reason" he can go ahead and shoot smaller stuff with the same rifle. It's nice to be able to back this up by having the letters AOLQ printed on the ticket, but it's not a necessity according to the home office guidelines. Provided that his certificate doesn't state "deer only" he's good to go. (The critical word there being "only").